A brief interview with Paul Hoover
(conducted by Rusty Morrison)
What aspects of your history and/or what particular obsessions of yours do you see apparent in Desolation : Souvenir?
Desolation : Souvenir began as a “filling in” of the blank spaces in A Tomb for Anatole, Paul Auster’s translation of Mallarmé’s grief-stricken notes for a poem that he never completed on the death of his ten-year-old son. However, my writing soon turned to my own consideration of life, death, the breaking of family relations, and loss of love as experienced by all of us: “when death plays / with a child / it goes out nimble / comes back cold / life that traitor / aboard a razor boat.” Written in three terse stanzas, each of the poem’s 50 pages offers a phrase that becomes the title of its opposite number at the other end of the manuscript. I wanted to create a haunting echoic effect that would become especially rich as the phrases “cross” at the middle of the sequence. At times, the poem mourns the loss of the earth itself: “what will be enough / when the earth / contains no one / will the harvest still be full” and “no bees in the hive, no hive / sound returns to its bell.” Inspired by my reading of Wittgenstein’s Tractatus, the companion poem, “The Windows (The Actual Acts),” consists of a series of philosophical propositions in everyday language: “An object is the actual awaiting further action. / It can wait a long time. / Time is fresh in objects even when they decay. / You can’t give one example of time getting old.” Another series of thoughts begins: “Have you every gazed from a window to see if everything’s still there? / And see your own face in the glass, superimposed on the view? / Consciousness rests among its objects. / Which makes the objects restless.”
How might you compare this book to your previous books?
In recent years, my poetry has also become increasingly project-oriented. For instance, Poems in Spanish consists of poems written as if in Spanish; Sonnet 56 contains 56 formal variations of Shakespeare’s Sonnet 56. In the title poem of desolation : souvenir, I have filled in the missing words of a unfinished Mallarmé work, published in Paul Auster’s English translation as A Tomb for Anatole. In the second poem, “The Windows (The Actual Acts),” I’ve rewritten the Tractatus of Wittgenstein from a poetic, rather than purely philosophical, point of view. The two long poems in this volume can be described as lyric proceduralism, especially the title poem.
What interesting story might surprise readers about the inception or process of writing this book?
“The Windows (The Actual Acts)” was written in 2007 at the Universal Hotel in Rosario, Argentina.
Why would a reader want to choose to read this collection of poems now? Or…What issues arise for you with respect to this work?
This book speaks to the essential and universal rather than to matters of politics and history. Poetry can ask what rain is saying or wonder how it would be “to awaken as an owl / hear the mice traipsing.” The title poem inquires of a former sweetheart: “what will last of us? / stir of you in the bed / warmth I can only remember / who will say your name? / who puts his words in you?” Likewise, in a later section: “crimes of the heart / confetti all over the bed / mother and father / travel without a map / one twisted, one deviant being / when love is being made.”
Poetry can also make philosophical statements, such as “There is no freedom for objects with names. / They’re stuck being themselves. / For example, you can’t rename a thing. / It would alter the world too much. / What instead would you call ‘scissors’?”
Who are the authors with whom you feel a kinship? Who are you reading currently? Do you see any direct or indirect similarities between their work and your own?
Many contemporary poets write long serial poems and sequences. But those doing so with lyrical intensity are few. The poets I am drawn to include Michael Palmer’s Autobiography series in Promises of Glass (New Directions, 2000) and his Fragment and Classical Study series in Thread (New Directions, 2011); recent books of Ann Lauterbach including Hum (Penguin Poets, 2005) and Or to Begin Again (Penguin Poets, 2009); and the gnostic word play of Andrew Joron in Trance Archive (City Lights Books, 2010). The thrust of Lauterbach especially is outward, resulting in long, sweeping movements, where the muchness of the language can fall to vacancy. The pinch of Joron is toward the word, albeit the word in its multiple and homophonic relations (weight / wait).
All three poets are sizeable in their achievement as poets and also different, but all share the practice of abstract lyric, in which thought and song are joined. Because of the song-like element, the thought is given pleasure. In the modern period, it was developed most successfully in the work of Wallace Stevens. In the Palmer work above, we can also feel the influence of e.e. cummings.
What, specifically, were some of the most interesting or most daunting challenges you faced as you worked through this text? Where there any unexpected surprises—with respect to form or content—that opened in the text for you in the writing process?
In writing the poem “desolation : souvenir,” I was faced with the possibility that I was drawing power from someone else’s grief. This concern faded as I proceeded further into the writing. It is always a challenge, of course, to create ex nihilo. I was not working from memory of a narrative of my own life, but rather with shreds of feeling. I found that my chosen form—unpunctuated, lower case couplets—was very helpful in approaching this burden of silence and white paper. Each short line must maintain the tension of a step taken. It can move forward or swerve; it can conclude or extend something already proposed, but it must be active and maintain the quietness of the tread.
I had already investigated quietness in the long serial poem “Edge and Fold” (2006):
lake bed quiet
covered with snow
windows shining orange
because of certain dusts
invisible to the eye
even the road is silent
not a single tire moving
along with its cold
Thus presence and size are achieved through absence and minimal phrasing.
In “desolation : souvenir,” the pressures are of world and fate, the living world shaken by its knowledge of death. The form of the couplet is retained but given more room for development in the triadic stanzas of each page. In “sound returns to its bell”:
the absolute if there is one
the darkest thoughts are trees
with a hint of light behind them
life has been and is
a miracle death discovers
in the farthest well-lit room
what had been silent
staggers back to its voice
consolation roars
only the sound of life
houses without doors
moral fish and moral laws
let me sink my teeth in that
now that all is gone
this thought is on its own
go, my carrion nouns
seek what you have found
In short, I view these poems as an argument, or plea-bargaining, with eternity. The “engine” of expression is the paradox of being itself, what is in struggle with what is not, for example:
that which passes
collects somewhere
waiting for its meaning
how’s this for a thought
poetry tears the cloth
even as it repairs it
The book’s second long work, “The Windows (The Actual Acts),” has a structure similar to Ron Silliman’s long poem “The Chinese Notebook,” that of a numbered series of propositions. Because I worked my way through the entire Tractatus Philosophicus in producing the poem, I see my poem as closer to Wittgenstein than Silliman’s, which comments primarily on poetry.
RM: You chose the artwork that was used in the cover design for this translation. Can you talk about your reasons for this choice?
I typed the word “desolation” into the Google search engine and it took me to some images on Flickr, the image-sharing site. Many of the images were of wastelands and debris. But as I continued the search I came across the work of someone who went by the name of “an untrained eye.” His images had a bright melancholy and intensity of attention different from the others. The image I selected was taken in a subway station, gazing up into a concrete hollow onto the floor above, where a man happened to be resting on his elbows. But it was the warm ring of gold light surrounding his blue-gray figure that made the image special. In his Flickr notes, “an untrained eye” indicates that he waited for half an hour until something happened within that ring of light that brought his camera to attention. The same was true for the making of poems. Sometimes you can sense that a certain place has promise for you—that clearing of trees, for instance in the movie Blowup. You keep photographing it even though nothing is there, because you sense something will emerge. For me the “draw” was every aspect of the book design of the aging Mallarmé volume, from the fading trees on its pale green cover to the darkening paper within.
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